Tuesday, February 12, 2013

The limits of eliminativism


Eliminativist positions in philosophy are a variety of anti-realism, which is in turn typically contrasted with realist and reductionist positions.  A realist account of some phenomenon takes it to be both real and essentially what it appears to be.  A reductionist account of some phenomenon takes it to be real but not what it appears to be.  An eliminativist view of some phenomenon would take it to be in no way real, and something we ought to eliminate from our account of the world altogether.  Instrumentalism is a milder version of anti-realism, where an instrumentalist view of some phenomenon holds that it is not real but nevertheless a useful or even indispensible fiction.

So, for example, a realist account of the mind would hold that it is both real and (just as it appears to be) irreducible to anything material; a reductionist account of the mind would hold that it is real but “really” just “nothing but” something material; and an anti-realist position would be that the mind is not real at all and should either be regarded merely as a useful fiction or eliminated altogether from our account of human beings and replaced by concepts derived entirely from physical science.  A realist account of free will would hold that it is both real and (just as it appears to be) incompatible with causal determinism; a reductionist account would hold that free will is real but compatible with determinism; and an anti-realist position would be that it is in no way real.  And so forth.

Some forms of anti-realism might seem at least coherent, whether or not they are true.  For example, someone who takes an anti-realist position in ethics -- that is, who denies that moral notions like “good” or “right” name any real features of the world -- is, arguably, not taking a self-defeating position, even if he is taking an incorrect position.  The same might seem to be true with respect to anti-realism about the existence of God, i.e. atheism.

In fact, I think, things are not quite that simple.  At least given an Aristotelian-Thomistic metaphysics of the good, on which the true and the good qua transcendentals are convertible with one another, you cannot coherently affirm that it is true that there is no such thing as goodness.  (See the relevant sections of chapters 3 and 5 of Aquinas.)  Nor, I would say, can you consistently affirm that the world is intrinsically intelligible while denying that there is something that is actus purus rather than a compound of act and potency, or ipsum esse subsistens rather than having merely derived existence.  And in that case at least certain forms of atheism will ultimately be incoherent.  (I addressed the incoherence of denying that the world is intrinsically intelligible in a couple of earlier posts, here and here.)  However, it obviously takes a fair bit of work to establish such claims about the good and God.  The incoherence (as opposed to mere incorrectness) of denying their reality is certainly not obvious or blatant. 

Blatant incoherence is more commonly attributed to eliminativist views about consciousness or thought.  Even here there might seem to be wiggle room.  The eliminativist vis-à-vis consciousness can claim that what he denies is not consciousness per se but only the existence of qualia -- those aspects of conscious experience that are accessible only from the first-person point of view of the subject of the experience.  The eliminativist about thought can claim that what he denies are merely propositional attitudes like belief, desire, and the like, but not that there are other information-bearing states in the brain that need to be understood in terms of neuroscience rather than commonsense psychology.

In both these cases I think the incoherence is only disguised rather than avoided.  With respect to qualia, one problem is that it is dubious at best whether there is anything left to consciousness when qualia are entirely subtracted from it; another is that the motivation for denying qualia is often supposed to be scientific, but to deny their existence would be to undermine the evidential base of science itself.  (This is a paradox which, as I’ve pointed out before, has been noted by thinkers like Democritus and Schrödinger, whose respectability from the point of view of scientism can hardly be denied.)

In the case of thought, the trouble is that the motivation for eliminativism here is the difficulty of accounting for the intentionality, “aboutness,” or directedness of thought in terms of a modern, mechanistic, anti-Aristotelian conception of matter, on which matter is inherently devoid of finality, directedness, or teleology of any kind.  Getting rid of beliefs, desires, and the like only eliminates one kind of intentionality.  But some kind of intentionality must be affirmed if notions like theory, concept, model, evidence, inference, truth, and the like -- which are central to the very notion of, and practice of, science itself -- are to be affirmed, or even reconstructed in some more scientistically “respectable” way.  The notion of “information” seems to do the trick only because it is systematically ambiguous.  If meant in something like the technical, Claude Shannon sense, it is itself prima facie compatible with scientism, but irrelevant to reconstructing inherently intentional notions like theory, concept, truth, etc. in materialist-friendly terms.  If meant instead in the ordinary sense, it is relevant, but then smacks of intentionality of just the sort the advocate of scientism was supposed to be explaining away.  (I’ve discussed these sorts of problems with eliminativism about intentionality in several places, such as here.)

But I would say that all of this is secondary to what I take to be the two areas in which eliminativism reaches its absolute, undeniable limits in principle: formal or abstract thought; and change.  The first is what James Ross, in an argument I defend at length in an article in the latest ACPQ, notes is essentially determinate in a way material properties and processes cannot be in principle.  As Ross argues, to deny that our thought processes are ever really determinate -- to deny, for example, that there is ever a fact of the matter about whether we add, square, reason in accordance with modus ponens, etc. -- is doubly incoherent.  For one thing, it entails that none of our arguments -- including the arguments that purportedly support the denial that we ever have thoughts of a determinate form -- is valid.  For another, even to deny that we ever really add, reason in accordance with modus ponens, etc. requires that we grasp what it would be to do these things, and that requires having thoughts that are determinate in the ways in question.

That denying change cannot coherently be done has been obvious since Parmenides and Zeno first tried to do it.  Even to entertain their sophistical arguments requires that one work through their premises and, if one is to come around to their view, that one be convinced that their reasoning is sound -- all of which involves change.  Modern, Einstein-inspired attempts to deny the reality of change face a similar incoherence if pushed through consistently, as I argued in my recent paper on motion and inertia

Now it is the reality of formal or abstract thought that, in the view of classical philosophers, provides the chief reason why our intellectual faculties cannot possibly be entirely accounted for in material terms.  (See my defense of Ross for the full story.)  And the reality of change is the foundation of the Aristotelian theory of act and potency, which is in turn the key to the chief Aristotelian-Thomistic proofs of the existence of God.  New Atheist types in love with the ad hominem will no doubt be quick to conclude that this must be the reason why some philosophers insist that change and formal thought cannot coherently be eliminated.  But it is rather obvious why someone might agree that there is something fishy in denying the reality of change or formal thought processes even if he is not inclined either to theism or dualism.  What is much harder to see is why anyone would for a moment take seriously eliminativism about change or formal thought unless he was motivated to try to avoid theism and dualism.  As is so often the case, the person quick to fling an ad hominem will soon find he has thrown a boomerang. 

More interesting, perhaps, is the question why eliminativism about change and formal thought does not these days get the attention that eliminativist views regarding consciousness, intentionality, and the like do -- especially given that, as I would claim, the existence of change and formal thought processes ultimately pose the gravest challenge to naturalism, scientism, and related views.  Part of the answer is the general ignorance of the arguments of classical (Platonic, Aristotelian, Scholastic) natural theology and philosophical psychology that prevails today, and about which I so often complain.  When the modern reader hears talk of arguing from the world to God, he thinks of Paley and Leibniz, of “irreducible complexity,” Sufficient Reason, and the like -- not of the theory of act and potency.  When he hears talk of the immateriality of the mind, he thinks of qualia or perhaps of intentionality understood as mere directedness on to an object -- neither of which have much to do with Aristotelian or Thomistic arguments for the immateriality of thought.

A more remote cause, I would speculate, lies in the two epistemological doctrines that first vied to replace the Aristotelian-Scholastic conception of knowledge -- rationalism and empiricism.  The Scholastics affirmed the principle of causality, according to which any actualized potency must be actualized by something already actual.  This is a claim about objective reality, part of the theory of act and potency, whose foundations lie in the philosophy of nature and the analysis of how change as a feature of the objective world is possible.  The rationalists pushed this aside in favor of the “Principle of Sufficient Reason,” which is a purported “law of thought” rather than a thesis about objective, empirically knowable reality.  Change per se as the starting point for arguments in natural theology dropped off the “mainstream” radar screen, and failed to return even after the desiccated rationalist versions of the old proofs were dealt their supposed death blows by Hume and Kant.

Meanwhile, the empiricists crudely conflated conceptual thought with mental imagery, thereby obscuring that aspect of the mind that the Scholastics regarded as truly distinctive of human beings and the obvious mark of immateriality.  Even though later philosophers would see through the empiricists’ sophistries on this particular score, Locke, Berkeley, and Hume had succeeded in kicking up enough dust that the debate over materialism would no longer focus primarily on conceptual thought but instead on secondary issues (again, qualia and intentionality understood as mere directedness on to an object -- neither of which are essentially incorporeal on an Aristotelian-Scholastic view).

(I said more about the role modern rationalism and empiricism have played in obscuring the arguments of classical and Scholastic writers in a post on the philosophy of nature some months back.)

In any event, a failure to see their theistic and dualistic implications is surely at least one reason why change and formal thought do not show up in the contemporary eliminativist’s crosshairs as frequently as (say) intentionality or consciousness do.  One way to avoid seeing the obvious is to try to convince yourself that your eyes are lying to you.  Another is just to look in the wrong direction.

453 comments:

  1. (And I've no idea what the '316' in '316wrf3' is supposed to mean. Or where it came from. At the risk of appearing to be self-deprecating, I acknowledge that that far exceeds my ability to generate typos.)

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  2. it was probably your captcha XD, you wrote in the wrong place.

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  3. Michael Brazier earlier said:

    As I've already mentioned, what a computer does is meaningful, and thereby has intentionality, only relative to the context of conventions invented by humans. An adding machine means addition only if a pattern of signals on a bundle of wires means a number, and the pattern of signals has meaning only because some humans agree on what it means. To maintain your position, you must therefore say that when humans think, what they do has meaning only relative to a context; that if I realize that addition is commutative and associative, there is some thing that gives meaning to that thought that is not the concept of addition.

    wrf3 replied:

    That context being nature.

    I'm surprised no one has really commented about this claim.

    That response seems to bring the whole conversation right back to the question I kept pressing, and never got a satisfactory answer for: does wrf3 think there is intrinsic intentionality in nature?

    In the above exchange, he's apparently taking the position that whatever intentionality there is in computers is derived, but also that whatever intentionality there is in humans is also derived. If the derivations just keep right on going and never stop, he's got a problem. Instead, he places the terminus at Nature.

    So again I ask: does that mean that there is intrinsic intentionality in nature?

    If so, then lo and behold, wrf3 is just advocating what seems to be a form of Aristotileanism after all.

    If not, then the intentionality of nature is derived as well, and it cannot be said to solve his problem. Any "context" it provides is just another derivation.

    So which is it?

    Also, someone should really point out the problems here:

    Quantum mechanics has shown that nature has no objective reality until we look at it (cf. the Bohr-Einstein debates).

    No, it has not. Quantum mechanics has come up with certain data and equations, and as a result, a variety of interpretations of quantum mechanics. That is one. There are others.

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  4. Anonymous wrote: That response seems to bring the whole conversation right back to the question I kept pressing, and never got a satisfactory answer for: does wrf3 think there is intrinsic intentionality in nature?

    Does the completely random transition of an electron from a higher energy orbit to a lower energy orbit count as "intrinsic intentionality"? If you answer "yes", then my answer will be "yes". If you answer "no", then my answer will be "no". If you don't answer, then I don't think the discussion will ever be able to progress. The question is likely undecidable, and both sides will remain forever in disagreement.

    No, it has not. Quantum mechanics has come up with certain data and equations, and as a result, a variety of interpretations of quantum mechanics. That is one. There are others.

    Sure. The question is whether or not they are correct interpretations or not. They aren't correct. Quantum observables are in a superposition of states until they are observed, at which point they take on a value which cannot be predicted ahead of time. (And there are no local hidden variables).

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  5. Does the completely random transition of an electron from a higher energy orbit to a lower energy orbit count as "intrinsic intentionality"? If you answer "yes", then my answer will be "yes". If you answer "no", then my answer will be "no". If you don't answer, then I don't think the discussion will ever be able to progress. The question is likely undecidable, and both sides will remain forever in disagreement.

    wrf3, you have said that humans and robots both have only derived intentionality. You've taken the position that whatever 'meaning' there is in either is only relative to a given context (in the case of humans, this context is just a derivation itself.) You cited "nature" as your ultimate source of context.

    The question I asked has nothing to do with my views, and everything to do with yours. I've placed you in a dilemma: if you say that nature's context is intrinsic and not derived, then you've gutted naturalism and materialism in one move. It turns out that Aristotle was ultimately correct: there is intrinsic meaning/intentionality/context. You just happen to think it's in nature.

    If you pull back and say no, even the meaning/intentionality/context there is itself derived, then you've got your work cut out for you. If you insist that all intentionality is derived, you're going to have coherency problems (to put it mildly.) If you throw up your hands and say "I don't know", then your theory is empty.

    So please: stop with the distractions and deflections. If you're not confident enough in your view to actually defend it when you're put in a tight spot and would rather talk about something else, then it doesn't matter whether we're "moving forward" or not. It's a pointless exercise.

    Sure. The question is whether or not they are correct interpretations or not. They aren't correct. Quantum observables are in a superposition of states until they are observed, at which point they take on a value which cannot be predicted ahead of time. (And there are no local hidden variables).

    That's nice. Do feel free to post your proof of one interpretation of quantum mechanics being correct and all the others being wrong. I mean, you'd win a Nobel for doing so, so please -- don't hold back.

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  6. They aren't correct. Quantum observables are in a superposition of states until they are observed, at which point they take on a value which cannot be predicted ahead of time. (And there are no local hidden variables).

    -------------------------------------

    That is pretty interesting statement...

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  7. Go here for sanity:

    http://maverickphilosopher.typepad.com/maverick_philosopher/2009/11/original-and-derived-intentionality-circles-and-regresses.html

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  8. Claiming that thought ultimately derives it's meaning from nature is completely vague and uninformative. In order to be able to claim that thought ultimately derives it's meaning from nature, you have to take up either the Crude Causal Theory or Biosemantics. I haven't seen any other naturalist/materialist alternatives presented here.

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  9. well depends Anon, what is the cognitive system that the theory is working with XD?

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  10. @grodrigues

    First, the only reason I brought up origins was because you said that there were two different senses of the term “derived” – one that applies to God and natural substances and another that applies to man and accidental substances.

    That said, I don't think I'm making my point very well. Let me try again…

    Let's, for the sake of argument, define "matter" as "the elements contained in the periodic table" (ignoring for now the metaphysical problems with that as well as the intrinsic teleology of the elements themselves*).

    Let's then consider two things: 'a dog' and 'a collection of all the elements contained in a dog'.

    Now, I think we can agree that the collection of elements will have a completely different teleology than the dog does. From this, we can conclude that the teleology of the dog is not a result of the elements themselves.

    Indeed, the elements by themselves don't account for the differentiation between material things at all – because vastly different things are made up of the same basic elements. Why does one carbon atom assist in the business of maintaining a dog in existence while another identical carbon atom is busy holding a rock together?

    This, to me, is the essence of Aquinas’ view on matter as expressed in his Fifth Way. Matter, by itself, cannot account for teleology – period – full stop. All teleology, therefore, is derived in some sense.

    * The intrinsic teleology of the elements themselves just takes the argument back one step – the principle remains true. The intrinsic teleology of the carbon atom is the same in a dog or in a rock.

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  11. @Daniel_Smith:

    I'm no expert on Aquinas, but let me take a crack at this and leave it to those who know better than I do to correct me if I go wrong. (I'm splitting my reply over two posts in order to fit within the character limit.)

    "Let's, for the sake of argument, define 'matter' as 'the elements contained in the periodic table' . . . "

    Well, now, hold on. If you want to understand Aquinas's views on matter, you can't just define "matter" in your own way "for the sake of argument." What Aquinas meant by "matter" is pretty much what Aristotle meant, which is ultimately cashed out in as "prime matter," which is pure potency. What you propose to call "matter" already has quite a bit of "form" in it.

    "Let's then consider two things: 'a dog' and 'a collection of all the elements contained in a dog'.

    Now, I think we can agree that the collection of elements will have a completely different teleology than the dog does. From this, we can conclude that the teleology of the dog is not a result of the elements themselves."

    Indeed it is not, because as you correctly imply, the dog is not merely a "collection of elements." For Aquinas as for Aristotle, the teleology of the dog is a result (or part) of the form of the dog, which is not reducible even to the "matter" at its level, let alone to "prime matter." (The "matter" the next level down may of course also have its own "form," and so on, until we get all the way down to "prime matter." But at any rate the teleology at any level results from the form at that level, not from the forms lower down in the hierarchy.)

    (continued in next post)

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  12. (continued from previous post)

    "Indeed, the elements by themselves don't account for the differentiation between material things at all – because vastly different things are made up of the same basic elements. Why does one carbon atom assist in the business of maintaining a dog in existence while another identical carbon atom is busy holding a rock together?"

    That's right, and the answer to your final question is that the teleology of the dog doesn't "come from" the level of the carbon atoms at all; it "comes from" the form of the dog.

    "This, to me, is the essence of Aquinas’ view on matter as expressed in his Fifth Way. Matter, by itself, cannot account for teleology – period – full stop. All teleology, therefore, is derived in some sense."

    And this is where the confusion seems to lie: because you're thinking of matter in your own terms rather than Aquinas's, you're attributing to him views he didn't hold. What Aquinas held, as I understand him, is that the teleology at any given level (or at least the teleology unique to that level) "comes from" the form at that level, not from the matter informed by that form. Follow that all the way down to the level of "prime matter" and we do indeed find out that, for Aquinas, "prime matter" can't account for teleology.

    That doesn't mean, though, that Aquinas viewed what you mean by matter "ateleologically." He most certainly did not. What you're calling "matter" he would have viewed hylemorphically as form-plus-(what-he-meant-by-)matter and as having a teleology appropriate to its form.

    I think the "Aquinistically correct" way to make your point is that Aquinas didn't think that, at any level in the hierarchy of forms, the "matter" at that level was sufficient to account for the teleology of the "next level up." And if that's what you mean, you're right; it's just that you're confusing yourself by taking "matter" to mean what you mean rather than what Aquinas meant, and concluding that he thought of matter (in your sense of the word) "ateleologically." He didn't. What you're calling matter, he'd have regarded as having a teleology appropriate to its own level.

    But again, I'm no expert, so others whose understanding exceeds mine may well step in here and correct me—or at least elaborate on points I've overlooked. And I hope they will.

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  13. I won't even try to correct the botch I made of "which is ultimately cashed out in as" in the first of my two posts above, but I'd better add the following:

    What grodrigues means (subject to his correction/elaboration, of course) in saying that "derived" is used in two different senses is just that there's a difference between the "derived intentionality" of (say) the plus sign as a symbol for addition, on the one hand, and our intentionality, on the other.

    Yes, our intentionality is (according to Aquinas) imparted to us by God and is therefore in some sense "derived." But the point is that, however we got it, we have it as part of our nature (the singular is deliberate; such intentionality is part and parcel of "human nature," or the form of the human being), whereas a plus sign has it only as a result of human convention, derived from beings who do have intentionality by nature.

    The two senses of "derived," that is, are (a) the sense in which a symbol (or whatever) that by nature lacks intentionality "borrows" some from beings who have it, and (b) the sense in which intentionality is imparted to beings who genuinely possess it by nature. We aren't just symbols God uses to think about things; we think about things ourselves.

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  14. wrf3,
    "
    Sure. The question is whether or not they are correct interpretations or not. They aren't correct. Quantum observables are in a superposition of states until they are observed, at which point they take on a value which cannot be predicted ahead of time. (And there are no local hidden variables).
    "

    I have to agree with Eduardo and Anonymous that this statement is perhaps a bit too bold. In particular I offer the following points:

    (1) modern physics isn't actually true in the sense that we would like because it isn't done yet. So declaring one interpretation to be the true one is somewhat premature : the model you are interpreting isn't even true yet.

    (2) any statement beginning with "Quantum observables are" and ending with "until they are observed" is contrary to the spirit of the Copenhagen interpretation. What it lacks in logical consistency it makes up for with a charming humility before the weight of experiment. What you cannot see, you must not discuss. Either that or consider a many worlds interpretation.

    (3) quantum theory admits no local hidden variables. We could still have non-local hidden variables or local ones at some sort of high energy limit at which quantum theory broke down.

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  15. reighley wrote: Either that or consider a many worlds interpretation...

    See Simple proof QM implies many worlds don't exist.

    In any case, this is straying a bit far afield. I hope to be able to respond to some of the still outstanding questions I've been asked, but life is forcing me to prioritize a bit in favor of having to eat.

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  16. Daniel Smith: "Doesn't Aquinas rely on matter being ateleological and indeterminate in his [fifth way] proof?" - How so? He never mentions matter in the course of that proof...

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  17. wrf3: "[Question: is there a clear demarcation between uninterpreted 'information' and interpreted information?] Sure. If an interpreter interprets it, then it's interpreted information." -- Next question: What is the difference between your entirely circular, uninformative answer here and a straightforward admission of ignorance?

    wrf3: "How do you know [that a plant has finality, but not intentionality]? What specific tests can we perform on a plant that shows it has no intentionality that, if they were performed on, say, a dog might show intentionality and, if on a human, intentionality? What would these tests show if it were performed on the universe itself?" -- The universe itself?? You consider it to be a live option that the universe itself is thinking about something or other? Re. plants: so you think a tree *thinks* to itself something like "getting chilly at night - winter's coming - must drop leaves" and then proceeds to get ready for winter? In general the test for intentionality would be behaviouristic, measured in terms of stimulus-responses which are appropriately interpreted as indicative of perception (yes: "appropriately interpreted as" - we may need to discuss that more). A tree could certainly have a basic level of intentionality, I suppose, and certainly a dog does, and this can all be purely materialistic according to the kind of argument Feser is offering. To begin with, do you understand that much?

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  18. wrf3: "Can evolution put together a neuron?" -- Do you know of any good argument for an affirmative response to this question?

    wrf3: "Scott wrote: What an utterly astonishing statement ('The only difference between the man, the dog, and the microphone is the complexity of the wiring -- the way their material processes the sound waves').

    All the more so because it's true."

    ...because it's *true*? And how do you know that? (I though we agreed that you *don't* know what reality really is? How is that compatible with your dogmatic claim here?)

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  19. I'm sure evolutionary processes can result in nerve cells, provided that there are already cells to "work with."

    Also, does an Oxygen atom mean a Nitrogen atom and a Fluorine atom? O is quite similar in atomic structure to N and F.

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  20. Scott,

    Thanks for your reply. I was using my definition of matter simply to make a point, and I addressed the problems with that in my post (I thought I did anyway).

    One problem I'm having is that I've been pursuing this issue across multiple threads and sometimes I just assume everyone has read my previous posts.

    I said previously that it is form that supplies teleology to matter, yet form must be traced back to God - as form itself is mind (not matter) dependent.

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  21. DavidM: How so? He never mentions matter in the course of that proof...

    No he doesn't. He goes beyond that. He says this: "We see that things which lack intelligence, such as natural bodies, act for an end"

    Then this: "Now whatever lacks intelligence cannot move towards an end unless..."

    He's saying that natural objects (having matter/form but lacking intelligence) cannot move towards an end "unless" something else (intelligence) is added to the mix.

    That's a bold statement!

    What I get from it is that it is THE END that must be supplied by an intelligent agent. Anything that lacks intelligence is incapable of decision making - yet we see throughout nature - natural bodies acting as if they are making decisions. THAT cannot be accounted for sans intelligence.

    So - to say that "matter" has its own teleology (its own "end") is to contradict Aquinas. Only an intelligent being can point something towards an end: "whatever lacks intelligence cannot move towards an end unless it be directed by some being endowed with knowledge and intelligence; as the arrow is shot to its mark by the archer."

    It seems plain as day to me. That's been my frustration - I can't get (what I consider) a good answer from the thomists here as to how intrinsic teleology jibes with that.

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  22. @Daniel Smith

    What I believe St. Thomas is trying to convey is that all created things are sustained by a per se causal order that finds its end in God. It's the thing's dependence on God for its existence that gives it order in its apparent behavior. So unless I misunderstand your question I don't see why non-intelligent substances cannot have teleology.

    Also, for more detail on the fifth way see de veritate 5.2

    http://dhspriory.org/thomas/QDdeVer5.htm

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  23. Daniel, just to add real quickly...a thing behaves the way it does, because of the kind of thing it is, and the kind of thing it is is dependent on God's creative act at all moments of its existence. So while it remains dependent on God for its being the kind of thing it is, it still behaves the way it does because of the kind of thing it is. Confused yet?

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  24. "Daniel, just to add real quickly...a thing behaves the way it does, because of the kind of thing it is, and the kind of thing it is is dependent on God's creative act at all moments of its existence. So while it remains dependent on God for its being the kind of thing it is, it still behaves the way it does because of the kind of thing it is. Confused yet?"

    Reminds me of how enzymes work. Their function (the reaction that they mediate) (finality) depends on their 3-dimensional structure (form). The form depends its primary (linear) structure, which depends on the DNA sequence.

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  25. Reminds me of how enzymes work. Their function (the reaction that they mediate) (finality) depends on their 3-dimensional structure (form). The form depends its primary (linear) structure, which depends on the DNA sequence.

    Yes, and the dependency must terminate somewhere non-contigent.

    Allosteric enzymes are especially fun to think of in this way...

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  26. "What I get from it is that it is THE END that must be supplied by an intelligent agent. Anything that lacks intelligence is incapable of decision making - yet we see throughout nature - natural bodies acting as if they are making decisions. THAT cannot be accounted for sans intelligence." -- That doesn't sound quite right. Aquinas doesn't say (or imply) that natural bodies act as if they are 'making decisions'. He says they act always or for the most part in the same way, so as to arrive at some determinate end.

    "So - to say that "matter" has its own teleology (its own "end") is to contradict Aquinas." -- Agreed. With the caveat that matter is real, so in a broad sense it cannot fail to have some purpose. And evidently, for Aquinas, it does, but its purpose is a very general one (which is unintelligible apart from its relation to material forms): to make natural change possible.

    "Only an intelligent being can point something towards an end:" -- Yes. Beings lacking awareness can't direct themselves towards an end. Since such beings *are* directed towards ends, God (intelligence, a per se principle of order) is required to account for this fact.

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  27. @Daniel_Smith:

    "What I get from it is that it is THE END that must be supplied by an intelligent agent."

    That's my understanding as well, although I agree with DavidM that it doesn't sound quite right to say that Aquinas thinks natural bodies act as if they're making decisions.

    "So - to say that 'matter' has its own teleology (its own 'end') is to contradict Aquinas."

    In the sense you mean, yes, as long as you're not saying that (according to Aquinas) matter has no teleology at all and isn't in any way directed toward ends. It does act toward ends -- just not "under its own steam." Aquinas's point is that the teleology it does have has to come from outside it, and thus is not -- in the sense you mean -- "its own."

    I'd still say, though, that Aquinas would regard the fact that (for example) mechanical systems act in such a way as to follow the "principle of least action" as in some sense following from their nature. In that sense (which is different from yours), I think he'd say that (physical) matter does have "its own" teleology.

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  28. To clarify Scott's point: It is not matter per se that acts at all, but rather material substances (composites of matter and form). Matter is real but it doesn't actually exist or act in its own right, considered in itself it is merely a (metaphysical) part of a being.

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  29. DavidM, thanks for the clarification.

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  30. It's probably also worth mentioning again that what Aquinas meant by "matter" is not what today's physicists mean by it. I hope I've been clear about which kind I have in mind each time I use the word, but I suspect I haven't -- which makes your clarification all the more welcome.

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  31. DavidM: That doesn't sound quite right. Aquinas doesn't say (or imply) that natural bodies act as if they are 'making decisions'. He says they act always or for the most part in the same way, so as to arrive at some determinate end.

    Well intelligence implies decision making - at least in the sense that something intelligent must decide what end a body will act toward. In the link Scott provided, Aquinas attributes divine providence to divine knowledge and to divine will. Aquinas must have in mind that natural bodies could act differently but don't (because God determines for them what end they are to aim for).

    All in all, I think we are in agreement here that bodies which lack intelligence cannot have teleology of themselves (i.e. intrinsically).

    This is where it gets sticky though. A-T thought (at least as put forth by Dr. Feser) stresses that natural bodies, lacking intelligence, do have intrinsic teleology.

    Here's Aquinas on that subject (from the link Scott provided).

    First, the objection:

    5. What is, of itself, determined to one course of action does not need the direction of anything else, because direction is applied to a thing to prevent it from taking a contrary course. Natural things, however, are determined to one course of action by their own natures. Consequently, they do not need the direction of providence.

    Then, Aquinas' answer:

    5. That determination by which a natural thing is restricted to one course of action belongs to it, not because of itself, but because of something else. Consequently, the very determination for bringing about the suitable effect is, as has been said, a proof of divine providence.

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  32. @Daniel_Smith:

    "In the link Scott provided . . . "

    For the record, 'twas not I but another who provided that link.

    "This is where it gets sticky though."

    I think the problem may be is an accidental equivocation on the word "intrinsic."

    What I take Aquinas to be saying is that a natural thing is, by nature, restricted to a single course of action, but isn't and can't be responsible for generating/creating the nature that thus determines it to that action.

    Aquinas acknowledges, that is, that the determination by which a natural thing is restricted to one course of action does belong to it and is thus "intrinsic" to it in one sense -- but that determination has to be imparted to the thing by something else in the first place, and so in another sense it isn't "intrinsic" to the thing.

    If I give you ten dollars, it's your money, but you still got it from me and wouldn't have had it without me.

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  33. Daniel,

    If we consider that the natural things that we've been talking about have their own nature from the moment they come into existence until the moment they go out of existence, but that God created and was sustaining the thing all along the way, then can't we say that the thing's nature was fully its own even though it's God's creative act that sustains it?

    Even we who have our own nature as rational souls owe every moment of our existence to the God that created us in His image. So as Scott said, it is intrinsic in one sense, and derived in another.

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  34. Scott and Steve have already explained what is going on, but I'll add my bit too.

    "Well intelligence implies decision making..." - no, intelligence may imply only contemplation. Only practical intelligence implies decision-making. Divine intelligence (including providence) is not deliberative (unless in an analogous sense, since God's act of creation is free, i.e., not subject to any extrinsic necessity).

    "Aquinas must have in mind that natural bodies could act differently but don't (because God determines for them what end they are to aim for)." - You're ignoring the intrinsic connection between the nature of a thing and its operation. Operation follows from nature. God doesn't create a thing, then decide how it will operate. So when you say "natural bodies could act differently" this just means that God could have created natural bodies other than those that he did in fact create.

    To amplify Aquinas' answer:

    "5. That determination [i.e., the thing's created nature] by which a natural thing is restricted to one course of action belongs to it, not because of itself, but because of something else [why? - because it was created by something else, and for the sake of something else]. Consequently, the very determination for bringing about a suitable/harmonious effect is, as has been said, a proof of divine providence."

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  35. Scott: For the record, 'twas not I but another who provided that link.

    My bad!

    If I give you ten dollars, it's your money, but you still got it from me and wouldn't have had it without me.

    Yes, I agree. My problem is when people say that material things have intrinsic teleology - full stop. To use your $10 analogy, it's like a kid who gets a $10 allowance for doing nothing, then claims he earned it! The material thing does nothing to determine its own direction. That direction comes entirely from another.

    I guess it's a nit-pick, because Thomists know the whole story, but it gives those unfamiliar with A-T thought the idea that we believe in something akin to "magic matter" - i.e. that teleology comes from matter itself.

    One other nit-pick: When dealing with materialism here on this website, I've yet to see a Thomist break out the Fifth Way as an argument. I don't understand why that is. It's such a powerful argument!

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  36. Steve: then can't we say that the thing's nature was fully its own even though it's God's creative act that sustains it?

    Yes, but the end to which the nature is directed does not come from the nature itself. This has nothing to do with God sustaining a thing in existence BTW. It has everything to do with the fact that material things can't determine their own direction.

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  37. DavidM: no, intelligence may imply only contemplation. Only practical intelligence implies decision-making. Divine intelligence (including providence) is not deliberative (unless in an analogous sense, since God's act of creation is free, i.e., not subject to any extrinsic necessity).

    OK that makes sense. I must confess that I didn't fully understand Aquinas' statements in the link Steve provided. He seemed, at various times, to be attributing God's providence to his knowledge, his will or his power.

    You're ignoring the intrinsic connection between the nature of a thing and its operation. Operation follows from nature. God doesn't create a thing, then decide how it will operate.

    When I used the term "decision" I meant it in the sense of one who makes a determination. God determines what a thing's nature will be. He sets the boundaries. I humanized it a bit and said that he "makes the decision". Not the best choice of words.

    So when you say "natural bodies could act differently" this just means that God could have created natural bodies other than those that he did in fact create.

    Yes, and that's what I meant by that. It's not up to the natural thing to determine how it will operate, that is determined by God's will (or knowledge or power).

    To amplify Aquinas' answer:

    "5. That determination [i.e., the thing's created nature] by which a natural thing is restricted to one course of action belongs to it, not because of itself, but because of something else [why? - because it was created by something else, and for the sake of something else]. Consequently, the very determination for bringing about a suitable/harmonious effect is, as has been said, a proof of divine providence."


    Well said.

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  38. Yes, but the end to which the nature is directed does not come from the nature itself.

    Correct. God determines what kind of thing a thing is as the primary causal principle of everything outside Himself. So its proper end is predetermined in that sense.

    This has nothing to do with God sustaining a thing in existence BTW.

    It does is we want to maintain a distinction between God as primary cause and what Aquinas refers to as secondary causes. These are effects of causes distinct from Himself, but not independent from His primary causal activity.

    It has everything to do with the fact that material things can't determine their own direction.

    Aquinas believes they can through secondary causes.

    I need to go for now, but if you like, I can try to pull together some more references for you later. Just let me know...

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  39. Steve,

    Aquinas believes they can through secondary causes.

    Not sure how that would work.

    BTW, I should have said "mindless material things can't determine their own direction".

    I need to go for now, but if you like, I can try to pull together some more references for you later. Just let me know...

    Please. I'd appreciate it - when you get time.

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  40. Daniel,
    With respect to primary causation (per se) and relevant to the 5th way:

    Material and efficient causes, as such, cause only the existence of their effects. They are not sufficient to produce goodness in them so that they be aptly disposed in themselves, so that they could continue to exist, and toward others so that they could help them. Heat, for example, of its very nature and of itself can break down other things, but this breaking down is good and helpful only if it happens up to a certain point and in a certain way. Consequently, if we do not admit that there exist in nature causes other than heat and similar agents, we cannot give any reason why things happen in a good and orderly way. De ver. 5.2 resp.

    For, as Augustine says, for creatures to subsist God must constantly work in them. This action of God, however, must not be compared to the action of a craftsman building a house, for, when his action ceases, the house still remains; it should rather be compared to the sun’s lighting up the air. Consequently, when God no longer gives existence to a creature, whose very existence depends on His will, then this creature is reduced to nothingness. De ver. 5.2 ans.6

    Indeed, everything whereby things attain their end pertains to the governance of these things. For things are said to be ruled or governed by virtue of their being ordered to their end. Now, things are ordered to the ultimate end which God intends, that is, divine goodness, not only by the fact that they perform their operations, but also by the fact that they exist, since, to the extent that they exist, they bear the likeness of divine goodness which is the end for things, as we showed above. Therefore, it pertains to divine providence that things are preserved in being. ScG.3.65.2

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  41. Shifting to secondary causation we see St. Thomas admit of secondary powers that inhere in created things, but that remain dependent on God:

    I answer that we must admit without any qualification that God operates in the operations of nature and will. Some, however, through failing to understand this aright fell into error, and ascribed to God every operation of nature in the sense that nature does nothing at all by its own power. They were led to hold this opinion by various arguments. Thus according to Rabbi Moses some of the sages in the Moorish books of law asserted that all these natural forms are accidents, and since an accident cannot pass from one subject to another, they deemed it impossible for a natural agent by its form to produce in any way a similar form in another subject, and consequently they said that fire does not heat but God creates heat in that which is made hot. And if it were objected to them, that a thing becomes hot whenever it is placed near the fire, unless some obstacle be in the way, which shows that fire is the per se cause of heat; they replied that God established the order to be observed according to which he would never cause heat except at the presence of fire: and that the fire itself would have no part in the action of heating. This opinion, is manifestly opposed to the nature of sensation: for since the senses do not perceive unless they are acted upon by the sensible object—which is clearly true in regard to touch and the other senses except sight, since some maintain that this is effected by the visual organ projecting itself on to the object—it would follow that a man does not feel the fire’s heat, if the action of the fire does not produce in the sensorial organ a likeness of the heat that is in the fire. In fact if this heat-species be produced in the organ by another agent, although the touch would sense the heat, it would not sense the heat of the fire, nor would it perceive that the fire is hot, and yet the sense judges this to be the case, and the senses do not err about their proper object.

    It is also opposed to reason which convinces us that nothing in nature is void of purpose. Now unless natural things had an action of their own the forms and forces with which they are endowed would be to no purpose; thus if a knife does not cut, its sharpness is useless. It would also be useless to set fire to the coal, if God ignites the coal without fire. De pot.3.7

    Some have understood God to work in every agent in such a way that no created power has any effect in things, but that God alone is the ultimate cause of everything wrought; for instance, that it is not fire that gives heat, but God in the fire, and so forth. But this is impossible. First, because the order of cause and effect would be taken away from created things: and this would imply lack of power in the Creator: for it is due to the power of the cause, that it bestows active power on its effect. Secondly, because the active powers which are seen to exist in things, would be bestowed on things to no purpose, if these wrought nothing through them. Indeed, all things created would seem, in a way, to be purposeless, if they lacked an operation proper to them; since the purpose of everything is its operation. For the less perfect is always for the sake of the more perfect: and consequently as the matter is for the sake of the form, so the form which is the first act, is for the sake of its operation, which is the second act; and thus operation is the end of the creature. We must therefore understand that God works in things in such a manner that things have their proper operation. ST Ia.105.5

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  42. Daniel Smith: >"Aquinas believes they can through secondary causes."
    Not sure how that would work.


    Perhaps consider an example such as a computer that has been programmed to do certain things. The programmer does not have to remain to manipulate the computer; once programmed, it will act accordingly, even if the programmer is dead and gone, or annihilated completely. But the programming still completely depended on the programmer; the computer in no sense "programmed itself" or in any way came to be running the given code without some programmer in the first place.

    Or consider the arrow once you have shot it towards the target. The arrow is definitely flying in a certain direction, and that direction is "in" the arrow itself; indeed, there's no such thing as an arrow that isn't pointing in some direction. So even though that directionality is "derived" from you as the archer, the directionality is (or becomes) something internal to the arrow, insofar as it possesses it. Now what is not in the arrow is the goal: the state of "being-stuck-in-the-target"-ness is clearly not in the arrow, since the only way for a form to be in matter is for the arrow to actually be sticking in the target. Since the form does not exist materially (yet!), the only other way for it to exist is intentionally, in some mind (and the arrow has no mind, only the archer).

    Hence the directionality is "in" an object, while the goal itself is external. So strictly speaking, yes, it is not quite right to say that things possess "teleology" — for one thing, "teleology" by the form of the word refers to the study of ends, which is not in objects at all! We really should refer to "teleological properties" or "aspects" or something like that: the internal directedness and the external goal.

    (continued...)

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  43. (cont'd.)

    I have also been sloppy above about the distinction between substance and artifact: we can say that the direction is in the arrow while it's flying to the target, but clearly that directionality is "external" in the sense that is was externally imposed by you, the archer; the arrow could have been shot in some other direction at some other target (a different goal), or in some random direction (no goal at all). So "target-striking-directionality" is not something inherent to being an arrow. However, a property like "falling-down-ness" is inherent to the arrow — or, rather to the individual substances making up the arrow. You cannot re-direct matter to fall up, no matter what you do to it externally. (You can of course throw some matter up in the air, but it continues to be subject to the force of gravity — and even if you put it out in the middle of empty space, a substance with mass is always directed towards gravitational attraction.)

    You could call these innate properties "derived" in the sense that they are "derived" from God (thus making something that also had properties derived from an external artificer/archer "doubly derived"), but we normally don't talk that way any more than we say that something intrinsically round has its shape "derived" from God — we just say God created a round thing. After all, the whole point of being intrinsic is that you cannot remove the mass (or roundness, etc.) from the substance because then it wouldn't be that substance any more. God doesn't create, say, an massless electron and then "add" some mass to it from outside, because if it didn't have mass it wouldn't have been an electron in the first place. An artificer, on the other hand (whether that be a man or whether that be God "assembling" something rather than "creating" it), takes some substance(s) which already exists, and adds something extra to it ("extra" being pretty much the same word as "external", after all).

    As for why the Fifth Way is not as prominent as the first three, I think that's because the materialist reductionist view is so pervasive at the present time. We are so used to assuming that physical entities "just work" this way or that way, that it seems strange even to ask what's behind that. We can easily study Hamlet, and quite productively, without knowing about Shakespeare, or even consciously being aware that an author existed. But if you bring it to somebody's attention, he will immediately agree that there must have been some author behind the work. Not so to someone who is accustomed to thinking in terms of "laws" and not natures or substances or causes, let alone someone who does not understand what forms, final causes, or intentionality is.

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  44. Steve,

    Thanks for the references. I'm not sure that they say what you think they say though.

    I said: "material things can't determine their own direction".

    And you answered: "Aquinas believes they can [determine their own direction] through secondary causes".

    I didn't see anything in the references you cited that gave me the impression that Aquinas believed that mindless material things can determine their own ends through secondary causes.

    Remember, the determining factor for all teleology, according to the Fifth Way, is intelligence. Something that lacks intelligence cannot 'set its own goals', 'determine its own way', 'design its own purpose', etc. That is the heart and soul of the Fifth Way.

    So, even though all of these things act on their own power, and move toward those goals on their own, they do not do so because they have made that determination within themselves. The end, the goal, the direction must come from an external intelligence.

    This doesn't mean that God must make that determination anew every time something acts toward an end. It just means that the determination is not and never was 'of the thing itself'. All of the references you cited are in agreement with that I think.

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  45. Mr Green: Perhaps consider an example such as a computer...

    That example always comes to mind when I think of this.

    Or consider the arrow once you have shot it towards the target. The arrow is definitely flying in a certain direction, and that direction is "in" the arrow itself; indeed, there's no such thing as an arrow that isn't pointing in some direction. So even though that directionality is "derived" from you as the archer, the directionality is (or becomes) something internal to the arrow, insofar as it possesses it.

    I don't know if I agree with the direction being "in" the arrow. The direction is "controlling" the arrow, but I don't know if it's really "part of" the arrow. But I also understand that this is just an analogy and in actual natural objects - yes, the direction (more correctly the tendency toward a certain direction) is part of the object.

    Now what is not in the arrow is the goal: the state of "being-stuck-in-the-target"-ness is clearly not in the arrow, since the only way for a form to be in matter is for the arrow to actually be sticking in the target.

    I don't think the "goal" depends on the "end" actually being achieved. It is the "aiming" that determines the "direction". The "goal" is what's "aimed at".

    Since the form does not exist materially (yet!), the only other way for it to exist is intentionally, in some mind (and the arrow has no mind, only the archer).

    OK, I agree with that.

    Hence the directionality is "in" an object, while the goal itself is external. So strictly speaking, yes, it is not quite right to say that things possess "teleology" — for one thing, "teleology" by the form of the word refers to the study of ends, which is not in objects at all!

    Yes!

    We really should refer to "teleological properties" or "aspects" or something like that: the internal directedness and the external goal.

    Agreed.

    I have also been sloppy above about the distinction between substance and artifact: we can say that the direction is in the arrow while it's flying to the target, but clearly that directionality is "external" in the sense that is was externally imposed by you, the archer; the arrow could have been shot in some other direction at some other target (a different goal), or in some random direction (no goal at all). So "target-striking-directionality" is not something inherent to being an arrow.

    Yes, this is much better I think.

    [continued]

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  46. [cont.]

    However, a property like "falling-down-ness" is inherent to the arrow — or, rather to the individual substances making up the arrow.

    Yes but that just moves intentionality one step back. One must then ask if "falling-down-ness" is a determination made by the substances that make up the arrow or if they depend upon an external intelligence for that end.

    You could call these innate properties "derived" in the sense that they are "derived" from God (thus making something that also had properties derived from an external artificer/archer "doubly derived")

    Well, according to Aquinas all teleology requires intelligence so...

    but we normally don't talk that way any more than we say that something intrinsically round has its shape "derived" from God

    Yes, well "roundness" only applies if something is in act or in potential toward "roundness". IOW, teleology is all about actions and work.

    After all, the whole point of being intrinsic is that you cannot remove the mass (or roundness, etc.) from the substance because then it wouldn't be that substance any more.

    Agreed. But remember, we're talking about "roundness" as an end that the mass works to maintain. That end, (the goal of "roundness") comes not from the mass but from a mind.

    God doesn't create, say, an massless electron and then "add" some mass to it from outside, because if it didn't have mass it wouldn't have been an electron in the first place. An artificer, on the other hand (whether that be a man or whether that be God "assembling" something rather than "creating" it), takes some substance(s) which already exists, and adds something extra to it ("extra" being pretty much the same word as "external", after all).

    Yes but it's not "mass" that we're saying is added, it's the "aboutness" of that mass (the potential of the electron to act toward an end).

    As for why the Fifth Way is not as prominent as the first three, I think that's because the materialist reductionist view is so pervasive at the present time. We are so used to assuming that physical entities "just work" this way or that way, that it seems strange even to ask what's behind that.

    Yes but that's why it's so powerful. When you ask the question, materialists are dumbfounded. And when they try to reduce teleology to matter, you just point out that the lower levels of matter are more alike - so that doesn't explain the differentiations in material objects at all. It leads to the necessity of formal and final causes to explain teleology in nature.

    We can easily study Hamlet, and quite productively, without knowing about Shakespeare, or even consciously being aware that an author existed. But if you bring it to somebody's attention, he will immediately agree that there must have been some author behind the work. Not so to someone who is accustomed to thinking in terms of "laws" and not natures or substances or causes, let alone someone who does not understand what forms, final causes, or intentionality is.

    Yeah but they really like to talk about origins though (mostly because they're used to dealing with the creationist/ID crowd), and when you talk about origins (whether it's Hamlet or the universe), the door is wide open for the Fifth Way!

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  47. I didn't see anything in the references you cited that gave me the impression that Aquinas believed that mindless material things can determine their own ends through secondary causes.

    Perhaps I don't understand what you mean by "determine their own ends." Did you mean that the thing is making a conscious choice to act a certain way? That's not the way I was interpreting it, and have never seen such an argument. By "determine their own ends" I thought you were referring to a thing acting in accordance with its own nature. Like fire burning someone's hand because it is inherent to the fire to give off heat (secondary cause). I suppose you could also have been referring to a thing deciding for itself why it exists at all, as though it's its own final cause. Of course, that would be absurd because the thing would have to be responsible for its own existence which would make it ontologically prior to itself. Again, God is the reason behind why anything exists at all.

    The end, the goal, the direction must come from an external intelligence.

    Have I given the impression that I don't believe that God is behind all of this?

    Just out of curiosity; do you believe that there is an intelligent design theory out there that is in harmony with St. Thomas' Fifth Way? If so, can you explicate the theory for me? I'm not up to speed on ID theories these days...thanks.

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  48. @Mr. Green:

    "[F]or one thing, 'teleology' by the form of the word refers to the study of ends, which is not in objects at all!"

    True, but I don't think it's any different from referring to (say) the "biology" of dogs. (Or for that matter to the "chemistry" of life or the "physics" of mechanical systems.) It's fairly common to use the name of a field of study to refer to the phenomena it studies.

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  49. Scott: Perhaps I don't understand what you mean by "determine their own ends." Did you mean that the thing is making a conscious choice to act a certain way?

    No, I'm saying that it's impossible for that to happen - since the thing lacks intelligence - hence the need for another intelligence.

    By "determine their own ends" I thought you were referring to a thing acting in accordance with its own nature. Like fire burning someone's hand because it is inherent to the fire to give off heat (secondary cause).

    No, I'm referring to why the thing has a nature that tends to an end. I'm referring to the determining factor behind that end.

    I suppose you could also have been referring to a thing deciding for itself why it exists at all, as though it's its own final cause.

    No, I'm using Aquinas' argument that non-intelligent things can't 'decide' anything.

    Have I given the impression that I don't believe that God is behind all of this?

    Not at all. This is just a distinction many Thomists fail to make. I think it has to do with an inordinate focus on the first three of the five ways.

    Just out of curiosity; do you believe that there is an intelligent design theory out there that is in harmony with St. Thomas' Fifth Way?

    Not that I know of. I used to frequent an ID website and would often use the Fifth Way as a jumping off point. But I seemed to get as much opposition from the ID crowd as I did the atheists so...

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  50. Daniel, I think we're pretty much in agreement with everything except my name :)

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  51. mercy! you folks make a fly on the wall dizzy.

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  52. @Daniel Smith:

    "No, I'm referring to why the thing has a nature that tends to an end. I'm referring to the determining factor behind that end."

    In that case I understand and agree—both with the statement itself and with your belief that Aquinas accepted it. I don't think falling rocks make up their minds to fall, and I don't think Aquinas thought so either.

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  53. Good we're all in agreement!

    Sorry Scott and Steve about the name dyslexia. If you guys would agree not to post in the same thread anymore, I'd be a lot better with your names - I swear!

    Sorry guys!

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