Tuesday, September 6, 2011

Modern biology and original sin, Part I

Our friend John Farrell has caused a bit of a stir in the blogosphere with his recent Forbes piece on modern biology and the doctrine of original sin.  Citing some remarks by Jerry Coyne, John tells us that he agrees with Coyne’s view that the doctrine is “easily falsified by modern genetics,” according to which “modern humans descended from a group of no fewer than 10,000 individuals” rather than just two individuals.  Those who have responded to John’s piece include Michael Liccione, Bill Vallicella (here and here), James Chastek, and Mike Flynn

Several things puzzle me about John’s article.  The first, of course, is why he would take seriously anything Jerry Coyne has to say about theology.  (We’ve seen ample evidence that Coyne is an ignoramus on the subject -- some of the relevant links are gathered here.)  The second is why John seems to think that the falsification of the doctrine of original sin is something the Catholic Church could “adapt” to.  (John’s article focuses on Catholicism.)  After all, the doctrine is hardly incidental.  It is de fide -- presented as infallible teaching -- and it is absolutely integral to the structure of Catholic theology.  If it were wrong, then Catholic theology would be incoherent and the Church’s teaching authority would be undermined.  Hence, to give it up would implicitly be to give up Catholicism, not merely “adapt” it to modern science.

In fairness to John, it seems he may have been speaking imprecisely.  He says, for example, that Eastern Orthodoxy does not accept the doctrine, which (as Bill Vallicella has pointed out) is not true.  What is true is that Eastern Orthodoxy does not agree with the Catholic way of spelling out the doctrine.  So, perhaps John would allow that it is not the doctrine of original sin per se that is in his view problematic, but only the Catholic understanding of the doctrine.  Still, at least one of the aspects of the doctrine that John apparently objects to -- the claim that there was an original pair of human beings through whom sin entered the world -- is also traditionally taught by Eastern Orthodoxy.  And whatever one says about Eastern Orthodox and other non-Catholic approaches to original sin, the point remains that if John were right, Catholicism would be in trouble. 

But John is not right, and the third thing that puzzles me about his article is why he seems to think the evidence cited by Coyne is obviously incompatible with the doctrine of original sin.  After all, the question of human origins is not a matter to which biological considerations alone are relevant.  Metaphysical considerations are at least as important -- indeed, they are more important, as we shall see -- and when they are factored in it can easily be shown that there is no incompatibility between the doctrine of original sin and modern biology.  Nor is the biological evidence something that the Church must now scramble to “adapt” herself to in order to salvage the doctrine.  In fact the subject is one that was addressed long ago, by (among other theologians) Neo-Scholastic thinkers writing in the era of Pope Pius XII’s Humani Generis, who tended to approach the issue from a broadly Aristotelian-Thomistic (A-T) point of view.  (Unlike Coyne, John has knowledge of Scholastic and A-T philosophy and theology, so it is surprising that he does not consider the possibility that the answers to the questions he raises might be found in these writers.)

There are two main issues that have come up in the discussion sparked by John’s article.  First, is modern biology consistent with the claim that the human race began with a single pair à la the biblical story of Adam and Eve?  Second, is modern biology consistent with the claim that this pair transmitted the stain of original sin to their descendents via propagation rather than mere imitation?  The answer to both questions is “Yes.”  In this post I will show why this is so in the case of the first question and in a follow-up post I will address the second.  What I have to say in this post will overlap to some extent with what Mike Flynn has said in his own excellent reply to John, and with what Kenneth W. Kemp says in his important recent American Catholic Philosophical Quarterly article “Science, Theology, and Monogenesis” (see ACPQ Vol. 85, No. 2 -- the same issue in which my article “Existential Inertia and the Five Ways” appears).  But I will approach things in a somewhat different way than either Mike or Kenneth Kemp do.  

What is man?

We can begin by asking what a human being is.   The traditional A-T answer is, of course, that a human being is a rational animal.  We are animals insofar as we have the capacities typical of animality in general -- nutrition, growth, reproduction, sensation, appetite, and locomotion.  These are all purely material capacities, all requiring bodily organs for their exercise.  We are rational insofar as we possess intellect and will.  These are immaterial capacities, and do not directly depend on any bodily organ, although they do depend on such organs indirectly.  I have explained the how and why in several places -- most fully in chapter 4 of Aquinas -- and have addressed some of the relevant issues in earlier blog posts, such as this one.  I will summarize only the most relevant points here.

What intellect involves, for the A-T tradition, is the ability to grasp abstract concepts (such as the concept man or the concept being mortal), to put them together into complete thoughts (such as the thought that all men are mortal), and to reason from one thought to another in accordance with the laws of logic (as when we infer from All men are mortal and Socrates is a man to Socrates is mortal).  All of this differs in kind, and not just in degree, from the operations of sensation and imagination, which we share with non-human animals.  Concepts have a universality and determinateness that no sensation or mental image can have even in principle.  The concept triangularity, for example, has a universality that even the most general mental image of a triangle cannot have, and an unambiguous or determinate content that the auditory or visual image of the English word “triangle” (whose meaning is entirely conventional) cannot have.  Indeed, concepts have a universality and determinacy that nothing material can have.  So while the A-T tradition holds, in common with materialism and against some forms of dualism, that sensation and imagination have a material basis, it also holds that intellectual activity -- grasping concepts, putting them together into judgments, and reasoning from one judgment to another -- is necessarily immaterial.  (Again, I’m not defending these claims here but just summarizing -- I’ve defended them elsewhere.)

All the same, for A-T the intellect does depend on matter in an indirect way.  For one thing, though the concepts we grasp are immaterial, we must abstract them from the mental images that derive ultimately from sensation, and imagination and sensation are material.  For another thing, even when we grasp an abstract concept, we always do so in conjunction with mental imagery (which is why the philosophically unsophisticated often confuse concepts with mental images).  For instance, the concept triangularity is not identical with either the word “triangle” (since people who have never heard this English word still have the concept of triangularity) or with any particular mental image of a triangle (since any such image will have features -- a certain color, say, or being scalene -- that do not apply to all triangles in the way that the concept does).  Still, we cannot entertain the concept of triangularity without at the same time forming a mental image of some sort or other, whether a visual image of some particular triangle, a visual or auditory image of the word “triangle” or of the corresponding word in some other language, or what have you.  The judgment that snow is white is not identical with a visual or auditory image of the English sentence “Snow is white,” since a German speaker (say) could make exactly the same judgment even though he would express it instead with the sentence “Schnee ist weiss.”  Still, we cannot form that judgment without at the same time forming some image or other (e.g. a visual or auditory image of “Snow is white,” or of “Schnee ist weiss,” or of some parallel sentence of some other language).  And so forth.  And this entails that any rational animal must have a material nature that is complex enough to support sensory and imaginative activity of the level of sophistication required to subserve immaterial intellectual activity.   Such sensory and imaginative activity cannot be a sufficient condition for intellectual activity, but it is a necessary condition.

Now for A-T, all material things are composites of form and matter, and “soul” is a technical term for the form of a living thing, specifically.  The soul is that which organizes a living thing’s matter in such a way that it is capable of the operations distinctive of living things.  Since the activities of living things other than human beings are entirely dependent on matter, their souls are themselves dependent on matter, and A-T allows that such souls may therefore have material origins.  But the human soul is different, precisely because it is that which makes us capable not only of material activities like digestion and sensation, but also of immaterial activities like thinking.  Hence it operates, at least in part, apart from matter.  Indeed, unlike the forms of other material things it is a subsistent form, capable of carrying on in existence beyond the death of the body of which it is the form, as a kind of incomplete substance.  For this reason, for A-T the human soul cannot in principle have a material origin.  In fact, it has to be directly created by God whenever a new human being comes into existence.  

On the one hand, then, A-T philosophers and theologians have been open to the possibility of evolutionary explanations of various biological phenomena, including the human body.  It might be that sensory and imaginative capacities of a level of complexity necessary to subserve intellectual activity arose gradually via evolutionary processes.  On the other hand, there are metaphysical constraints on evolutionary explanations, just as there are on all forms of empirical inquiry.  I have discussed some of these constraints in an earlier post, and for a more detailed treatment interested readers might look at an older Scholastic work like Henry Koren’s An Introduction to the Philosophy of Animate Nature, or the biology-related material in David Oderberg’s recent book Real Essentialism.  Most relevant to the issue at hand, for A-T there can in principle be no evolutionary explanation of the human soul precisely because the human soul can have no material cause of any sort.  We know this because (so A-T holds) we know on independent grounds that the distinctive capacities of the human soul (intellect and will) cannot be material.

A useful analogy is provided by the famous “weasel” example from Richard Dawkins’ The Blind Watchmaker (which I here adapt for my own purposes rather than his – so please spare me any complaints that I have misinterpreted him).  Dawkins describes a computer program which begins with a random sequence of 28 letters and “breeds” successive copies of the sequence, in such a way that via random errors or “mutations” in the sequence together with cumulative selection, the sentence “Methinks it is like a weasel” is eventually generated.  Now whether this is as useful an analogy to biological evolution as Dawkins thinks it is can be debated, but that is not to the present point.  The point is rather this.  Suppose we allow that a string of marks that looks like “Methinks it is like a weasel” could arise in nature via random mutation and natural selection.  Indeed, suppose we even allowed for the sake of argument that such a string could result only via random mutation and natural selection.  Would it follow that the English sentence “Methinks it is like a weasel” has, in that case, a completely naturalistic evolutionary explanation?  

No, that wouldn’t follow at all.  For an English sentence is not merely a string of marks, even if it is partly that (at least when written).  It also has a semantic content, and an evolutionary process of the sort described would no more generate that content by itself than my spilling ink on the ground in a way that left a set of shapes that looked vaguely like the word “cat” would by itself generate the actual word “cat,” semantic content and all.  The existence of the marks – whether the marks making up the word “cat” or those making up the sentence “Methinks it is like a weasel” -- is a necessary condition for the existence of the (written) word or sentence, but it is not a sufficient condition.  So, to explain the origin of a sequence of marks is simply not by itself to explain the origin of a certain English sentence.

In the same way, to explain how sensation and mental imagery might have developed via natural selection is simply not by itself to explain the origin of human thought, even if it is part of the story and even if it were allowed that the relevant material structures and processes could not have come about in any other way.  The same could be said of evolutionary explanations of whatever purported symbolic processing mechanisms cognitive scientists might claim to uncover.  Such mechanisms are really all sub-conceptual and not truly “cognitive” at all; for they are all, in effect, at the level of what A-T philosophers mean when they speak of sensation and imagination, insofar as computational symbols are of themselves no more universal or determinate in their content than mental images or words are.  These mechanisms may track our intellectual operations in a rough way, but they can never in principle either exhaust those operations or even exactly track them, since there is always some slack between conceptual content on the one hand and material symbols on the other.  (Again, these are themes I have explored at greater length elsewhere, including in this post and many other previous posts.)

To make a human being, then, it is not enough to make something having all the sub-conceptual or sub-intellectual capacities of the human body.  An animal having all those capacities may well look like a human being, and indeed have all the genetic and phenotypic attributes of a human being short of those phenotypic traits indicative of intellectual activity, such as language.  Perhaps it would look and act like the apparently sub-rational “humans” in the original Planet of the Apes movie.  But it would not be a human being in the sense in which A-T philosophers and Catholic theology understand “human being.”  For our nature is simply not exhausted by whatever traits flow from our genetic endowment.  “Human being” as used in A-T philosophy and Catholic theology is a metaphysical concept, and does not correspond exactly to (even if it overlaps with) the modern biological concept homo sapiens sapiens.  (In fact, some A-T philosophers would hold that the specific genetic and phenotypic traits typical of homo sapiens sapiens are not even essential to human beings considered as a metaphysical category: Anything that was both animal and rational would arguably be “human” in the relevant sense, even if it had a body plan radically different from ours.  See Oderberg’s Real Essentialism for a useful discussion.)

The origin of man

What has been said so far is along the lines of the sort of views you’ll find in Scholastic writers of the period of Pope Pius XII’s Humani Generis, and it reflects the pope’s teaching in that encyclical that:

 [T]he Teaching Authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions, on the part of men experienced in both fields, take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter - for the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God.  

However, the pope goes on to say:

When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty.  For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains that either after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parent of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents.  Now it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose with regard to original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which, through generation, is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own.

This is the passage John highlights as problematic.  Perhaps he thinks that what the pope is saying is that enquiry into an evolutionary explanation of human origins is permissible only to the extent that it might confirm, or at least be compatible with, the claim that evolution somehow generated exactly two human beings, one male and one female, from pre-human ancestors.  And since such a claim has been falsified (so John’s argument continues), Pius’s concession can be seen to have been too modest.  Given that the earliest human population could not have numbered less than 10,000 or so, a much more radical rethinking of human origins is now necessary.

But in fact no such rethinking is necessary, and Pius XII was making no such claim.  Notice that what the pope opens the door to is the possibility in principle of an evolutionary explanation of the human body, specifically, not of human beings full stop.  Nor does the pope say that exactly two such bodies will have to have been generated by evolution for an evolutionary explanation to be reconcilable with Catholic doctrine.  He also insists that the human soul can only have come from God.  

The implications of all of this should be obvious.  There is nothing at all contrary to what Pius says in Humani Generis in the view that 10,000 (or for that matter 10,000,000) creatures genetically and physiologically like us arose via purely evolutionary processes.  For such creatures -- even if there had been only two of them -- would not be “human” in the metaphysical sense in the first place.  They would be human in the metaphysical sense (and thus in the theologically relevant sense) only if the matter that made up their bodies were informed by a human soul -- that is, by a subsistent form imparting intellectual and volitional powers as well as the lower animal powers that a Planet of the Apes-style “human” would have.  And only direct divine action can make that happen, just as (for A-T) direct divine action has to make it happen whenever one of us contemporary human beings comes into existence.

Supposing, then, that the smallest human-like population of animals evolution could have initially produced numbered around 10,000, we have a scenario that is fully compatible with Catholic doctrine if we suppose that only two of these creatures had human souls infused into them by God at their conception, and that He infused further human souls only into those creatures who were descended from this initial pair.  And there is no evidence against this supposition.

This scenario raises all sorts of interesting questions, such as whether any of these early humans (in the metaphysical sense of having a human soul) mated with some of the creatures who were (genetically and, in part, phenotypically) only human-like.  (If any of the latter looked like Linda Harrison in Planet of the Apes, the temptation certainly would have been there.)  Mike Flynn and Kenneth Kemp have some things to say about this, but it does not affect the point at issue here, which is that there is nothing in the biological evidence that conflicts with the doctrine that the human race began with a single pair -- when that doctrine is rightly understood, in terms of the metaphysical conception of “human being” described above.

422 comments:

  1. One Brow: So, is the form of a dog just a subset of the processes of that dog, as opposed to the full set of processes?

    Well, forms are more like structure than "processes", but yes, a dog's form of Doghood is only one of it's forms. Any object has many forms (like accidental forms of redness, furriness, etc.) in addition to its substantial form, but of course we are typically more interested in what kind of a thing something is, so "the form" of something is usually short for the substantial form.


    So, since the for of Dog is a subset of the form of Mammal, with is a subset of the form of Vertebrate, all dogs participate in multiple essential forms as well as multiple accidental forms?

    Yes and no, depending on whom you ask. (Also, I wouldn't call it a subset, since forms aren't sets of things, although of course you can make sets of all the items that share a form.) For Aquinas, something only ever has one substantial form. For somebody like Duns Scotus, a substance can have more than one substantial form. (But I don't know the details for Scotus.)

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  2. djindra: 2) Conceiving is an abstract idea. Translation: Conceiving is imagining.



    Nope. As I already said, in ordinary speech we sometimes use the two terms interchangeably, but here "imagine" refers to images, or to sense-perceptions in general. You can imagine the image of a red equilateral triangle, but not of "triangularity" itself. Any image must have specific angles, for example, where triangularity does not.

    According to Feser we're supposed to be able to conceive of seeing ourselves in a mirror, with our eyes gouged out. That's irrational. It's not the result of reasoning. It's an imagined scenario.

    

It's irrational to imagine an imaginary scenario? Under any definition of "imagine", that's screwy. Maybe you just have a poor imagination.

    The "thought" that "this image actually exists in the real world" could easily be a true/false flag. If you want to call that flag an image, so be it. But it would be the terminal node. So there is no reason for infinite regress.

    No, you want to call it an image. And "true" or "false" are not images, though we have seen that you did not understand how that term was being used, which indicates that you have not looked into this matter before, despite your insulting tone.



    [pImage->sensed] could easily be defined in the image structure itself. But even if not, the "sensed" function could still reference another image and we're not talking about infinite regression as you well know. There may still be terminal nodes, as in any language parser. "Sensed" looks to be an ideal candidate for that.



    It doesn't matter whether "sensed" is part of the struct or not; all that matters is whether it is a boolean or not. If the only data-type available is IMAGE the program won't get very far. But now that we've clarified that we mean by 'image', that clearly won't do.

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  3. One Brow: Yet, we regularly make projections of the records of this Golden Age and find them fulfilled. For example, Tiltaalik rosae was found exactly where we were looking for it. That does not comport with the past being inscrutible.

    Well, exactly where we approximately thought we might maybe find it, unless of course we didn't. But Niedzwiedzki's footprints aside, Xerces's point was that our extrapolations into the past assume that the laws of physics were the same then as they are now — a perfectly natural assumption, to be sure, but if even the laws of physics were changed by the fall, our conclusions will be wrong nonetheless.

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  4. Mr. Green,

    Thank you for a direct answer about multiple essential forms. However, I must admit that if the answer can vary depending upon whom you ask, then that inclines me to think forms themselves are more formal constructs than real-world causes.

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  5. Mr. Green said...
    ... Xerces's point was that our extrapolations into the past assume that the laws of physics were the same then as they are now — a perfectly natural assumption, to be sure, but if even the laws of physics were changed by the fall, our conclusions will be wrong nonetheless.

    No doubt, but if such a change occured, it occured in such a regular fashion and that we can now detect no sign of chaos. If there was such a change, the prior state must have been close to ours in a few ways.

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  6. If there was such a change, the prior state must have been close to ours in a few ways.

    Very close... as there is no evidence to support the occurrence of "the Fall"

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  7. One Brow: if the answer can vary depending upon whom you ask, then that inclines me to think forms themselves are more formal constructs than real-world causes.

    Are forms formal? Well, sure! But that doesn't mean they aren't real. Aquinas and Scotus agree more than they disagree, but metaphysics isn't a closed subject any more than physics is.

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  8. One Brow: No doubt, but if such a change occured, it occured in such a regular fashion and that we can now detect no sign of chaos. If there was such a change, the prior state must have been close to ours in a few ways.

    Or else it was so different that even "signs of chaos" look nothing like what we'd expect. Or think of it as Adam and Eve not getting pushed outside a fence but into a parallel universe with its own history. We can extrapolate into the past perfectly consistently, we just can't see the past we want to know about in the original universe. (Admittedly, we can't do much with that, but hey, sometimes it's fun to speculate.)

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  9. Mr. Green,

    "You can imagine the image of a red equilateral triangle, but not of "triangularity" itself."

    Of course I can imagine 'triangularity' itself. We cannot even talk about triangles without forming a mental image of them.

    "Any image must have specific angles, for example, where triangularity does not."

    Our brains work like Photoshop. We can resize and reshape images of triangles at will. And that is part of what 'triangularity' means to us. We're not stuck with a fixed collection of images in our memory. Our memories don't work that way. We remember the relevant properties of the thing(s) under observation. Those relevant properties, such as three straight lines forming three angles, are very flexible in their application. IOW, we remember the abstraction. You can call it 'concept' if you must. If there is a real difference between concept and image it's not to be found in how we conceptualize or imagine triangles, because we can both imagine and conceptualize them.

    The more difficult example is the 10000 sided figure. That we cannot imagine in detail. Most of us can't even see the difference. A 10000 sided figure looks like a circle. But we do know it's possible to make one. A CNC machine can make one out of metal. It would look like a round bar. It would feel like one. But the program and the machine made a 10000 sided shape. Of that there is no doubt. If there is a difference in 'imagine' and 'conceptualize' it would show up in things like that, that is, in things we think we cannot imagine yet can conceptualize or things we can imagine but cannot conceptualize.

    "It's irrational to imagine an imaginary scenario?"

    No. Not everything we can imagine is rational. That's practically a given. Without that given you don't have a case.

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  10. Mr. Green,

    "And "true" or "false" are not images, though we have seen that you did not understand how that term was being used, which indicates that you have not looked into this matter before, despite your insulting tone.

    We have seen nothing of the sort. The so-called distinction between the terms is a long way from being settled.

    "If the only data-type available is IMAGE the program won't get very far. But now that we've clarified that we mean by 'image', that clearly won't do."

    Nothing has been clarified. IMAGE is clearly not the only data-type available, and even if it was, IMAGE is a structure of unknown and yet-to-be-defined primitive data-types. You have no way of knowing it clearly won't do. All we need is one data-type -- say BIT. More complex data-types are constructed from that. As programmers we know for a fact that complex structures can be built from very simple ones.

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  11. djindra: Of course I can imagine 'triangularity' itself. We cannot even talk about triangles without forming a mental image of them.

    Non sequitur (though good to see you agree with the Thomist position). As for being able to imagine "triangularity" itself, fine, show us the picture. Not a picture of A triangle, or of many triangles, but of triangularity.



    If there is a real difference between concept and image it's not to be found in how we conceptualize or imagine triangles, because we can both imagine and conceptualize them.

    

"If there is a real difference between baking and eating, it's not to be found in how we bake or eat cookies, because we can both bake and eat them." And don't think it's escaped notice that you keep replacing "triangularity" with "triangles" (which just implicitly acknowledges that they aren't the same).

    IMAGE is clearly not the only data-type available,

    Of course it's clear, but you kept trying to say that it's images all the way down. Your whole example was supposed to show how you could get concepts out of images alone.

    IMAGE is a structure of unknown and yet-to-be-defined primitive data-types. […] As programmers we know for a fact that complex structures can be built from very simple ones.

    Ah, so now the IMAGE type is actually a structure that contains the image data PLUS concept data. So we need more than mere "image data" after all. Great, we agree. (As for building everything out of bits, that sounds like you're going for some kind of neutral monism, which is a more plausible direction, at any rate.)

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  12. Mr. Green said:

    As for being able to imagine "triangularity" itself, fine, show us the picture. Not a picture of A triangle, or of many triangles, but of triangularity.

    How about, the word “triangle”? Or “Three points, not all on a single line, joined by three other lines”? Or a reasonable facsimile thereof.

    While it is true that one picture can be worth a thousand words, that is the benefit of words in that any one can be worth a thousand pictures.

    Although your request – “show us the picture” – seems predicated on the process of sight. Your demand then is sort of like saying “show us something in a sense that we don’t have the sensory apparatus to detect”. Like saying, “Show us, to our naked eyes, something that is only visible, reflects only, in the far ultra-violet”.

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  13. Mr. Green,

    As for being able to imagine "triangularity" itself, fine, show us the picture. Not a picture of A triangle, or of many triangles, but of triangularity.

    As I previously mentioned, an image of "triangularity" is not fixed in our heads. It is not a collection of the 100000 or so triangles we've seen in our life. It's a general image that consists of three points with lines drawn through those points forming three angles. It's impossible to point to one image because no fixed picture like that exists in our heads. It's rather like a moving picture. It moves according to an object in view, or one we want to form.

    "Triangularity" itself means we have ability to bring into our consciousness any number of shapes that are triangles. That's what I imagine 'triangularity' is. And this is no different than "stoneness" or appleness" or "SantaClausness". In all these cases our brains store likeness, not reproduction. If you think "triangularity" is something else then explain what it is. If you can't explain what it is then of course we cannot imagine or conceive what you cannot properly ask us to imagine or conceive.

    "If there is a real difference between baking and eating, it's not to be found in how we bake or eat cookies, because we can both bake and eat them."

    We can actually experience both baking and eating cookies. We know the difference from that. When you *know* the difference between imagining and conceiving then perhaps you can draw this analogy. Until then, it's a false analogy because the thing in question is unknown. You're presuming to know what you do not know. Until we knew that baking and eating are different, it could have gone either way. IOW, the baking and eating example comes after the fact. You don't have that luxury before the fact. And besides that, if baking brings into existence cookies, 'triangularity' brings into existence triangles. I can imagine baking cookies so I can imagine make triangles.

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  14. Mr. Green,

    And don't think it's escaped notice that you keep replacing "triangularity" with "triangles" (which just implicitly acknowledges that they aren't the same).

    One is an instance of the other. But it doesn't follow that we cannot imagine and conceive of both.

    Ah, so now the IMAGE type is actually a structure that contains the image data PLUS concept data.

    Ah, no. IMAGE contained Bool, not CONCEPT. CONCEPT is your need, not yet mine.

    "(As for building everything out of bits, that sounds like you're going for some kind of neutral monism, which is a more plausible direction, at any rate.)"

    Strictly neural and materialistic.

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  15. Even the most literal reading of the Book of Genesis would necessarily involve an indeterminate span of time between the mitochondrial Eve and the Chromosomal Adam - Noah, by common interpretations/translations of the Book would be humanity's most recent common male ancestor - but his wife did not contribute mitochondria to her grandchildren, as her grandchildren all derived their mitochondria from her son's wives.

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  16. Steersman: Your demand then is sort of like saying “show us something in a sense that we don’t have the sensory apparatus to detect”.

    Exactly — and yet Djindra's claim was that he could. (Though his comments now seem to indicate otherwise, so perhaps he agrees with us after all.)

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  17. Djindra: Until we knew that baking and eating are different, it could have gone either way.

    What?!? You're not making sense.

    One is an instance of the other. But it doesn't follow that we cannot imagine and conceive of both.

    It doesn't follow that we can. And so far, you have failed to show otherwise.

    

Ah, no. IMAGE contained Bool, not CONCEPT. CONCEPT is your need, not yet mine.

    Again, you seem to have lost track of what we were talking about. In your original example, booleans were the counterpart to conception just as IMAGE was the counterpart to imagining. But really, you do not even seem to be using the terms in the same way which makes it all pointless. In any case, I take it that Anonymous's original question has been addressed by now.

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  18. Mr. Green said:

    Steersman: Your demand then is sort of like saying “show us something in a sense that we don’t have the sensory apparatus to detect”.

    Exactly — and yet Djindra's claim was that he could. (Though his comments now seem to indicate otherwise, so perhaps he agrees with us after all.)


    Interesting. Raises the question and addresses the concept of emergence, how we can take a bunch of empirical facts and inductively reach a conclusion – as an empirical fact – that was not previously in our store of knowledge and facts. For example, I would argue, as in various textbook cases of mathematical induction.

    Although I suppose that only qualifies as learning something new using senses we already have. But I suppose it could be extended by suggesting that various facts could still lead us to create new senses – X-ray telescopes for example – that we did not previously have.

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  19. Mr. Green,

    Me:"Until we knew that baking and eating are different, it could have gone either way."

    You:What?!? You're not making sense."

    I thought it was clear but I'll elaborate. Suppose you were trying to establish that "pounding" and "hammering" were two different acts. It would not be wise to use nails as the object of the act because pounding nails and hammering nails are the same act. Perhaps bread would be a better example because nailing bread doesn't seem to make sense. So with bread "pounding" is different than "nailing".

    Likewise, the difference between imagining and conceiving triangles does not give us a clue as to any real difference between imagining and conceiving because we do both to triangles. You evidently thought using baking and eating cookies in a similar sentence structure would shed light on the issue. And it does in a way. It highlights my original claim. You assume there is a specific difference between imagining and conceiving -- a difference just as obvious as baking and eating. But this merely begs the question, which is what I said way up the thread. A-T theorist use conceiving and imagining as a hidden form of begging the question.

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  20. I have just been reading an old post on this site concerning modern biology and original sin. Really there are several quite incredible statements for a Thomistic blog. Nowhere is there any mention of the fall of man or the disorder now belonging to the human condition spoken of by St. Thomas at length. The possibilities of unaided human reason attaining knowledge of God are also exaggerated out of all Thomistic proportions. Of course there is freedom on the internet to have one's say but why tell earnest readers that this blog is Thomistic?

    I've been told these objections have been answered. Where is this?

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  21. First of all...try reading the bible. God created Adam...took a rib from Adam and made Eve as his mate. The bible isnt make believe or pick and choose what you want to believe. Its all or nothing. For you non believers...i ask Gods mercy on you souls. For you will be left behind unless you repent and ask God into your hearts. Be blessed. Remember...its not science...its God. John 3:16

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  22. The body of the human being as the final cause of the material universe would be a solution, I think. Every lesser form would thus point to him, from the atoms to the stars, the Earth, plants, animals and hominids. They would have been given powers, present in their form and their proper order, to eventually come to generate the next stage, from the very beginning. I think it fits with the Genesis narrative, too: God modelling man from the clay of Earth and then breathing the soul in him, and the material part of Creation being a garden in perfect harmony with his body and soul. The good for the sake of the very good.

    About the topic of the post, if I understand it well, modern genetics holds that all living humans today have (at least) one common ancestor, and that all biological humans today are metaphysical humans who have souls. I think that the dogma requires nothing more than this.

    The difficulty (namely, that looking to their genetics, modern humans seem not to descend from a couple, but from a larger group) may be solved by positing miraculous biological differences in the first couple that would mess with our genetical science in its current state, or by supposing that there has been interbreeding with other hominids or homo sapiens who where not of Adamic descent. Or our genetic science may have been wrong in some yet-to-discover aspect.

    The first one is plausible because we know that our first parents were granted a lot of miraculous gifts beyond their nature, ordered to them and their progeny. In the hypothesis of a miraculous genetical diversity, it may have been granted precisely to avoid the usual genetical consequences of incest, which for that reason, may have not been forbidden for a period. Noah may have had the same gift, or his tribe or extended family may have been in the Ark with his core family.

    About the second, there may have been an extended period of bestiality with hominids or biological homo sapiens who could interbreed with us and give descent (we are told about a long time of extraordinary moral degradation, after all, so they may have done it against God's wishes).

    That would require that all the homo sapiens that have at least one human/ensouled parent have been granted a soul by God, and that strictly non-Adamic homo sapiens would have become extint. If they were outperformed in such away, it sounds reasonable, even.

    Adamic men would thus transmit to their descent their diverse genetical lineage, as well as Adam's. As Dr. Feser claims, to be part of Humanity in the relevant sense, you have to have a soul. I note (I may be wrong) that the Pontiff says that it's necessary to believe that every human comes from Adam, but says nothing of Eve. So, if there was, hypotetically, a lack of a common femenine ancestor contemporary to Adam, he himself may have fallen into interbreeding (or taken another spouse of his descent and not Eve's after Eve's death).

    I think it wouldn't necessary clash with this dogma.

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